Razgovor s nizozemskim veleposlanikom Hendrikom Jan Voskampom

KroNland (HR): Udruga KroNland je u kolovozu ove godine uspješno realizirala svoj prvi projekt, a to je bilo održavanje desetodnevnog festivala Kulturna industrija na području Sisačko-moslavačke županije o kojem možete više pročitati ovdje. Osim što je festival svojim različitim kulturnim, sportskim i zabavnim sadržajima razveselio mnogobrojne Siščane, nas u Udruzi KroNland posebno su obradovale dvije činjenice. Jedna je ta što smo kao mlada tek osnovana udruga uspjeli u ostvarenju prvog koraka i osnovnog cilja udruge KroNland, a to je jačanje prijateljskih veza i odnosa dviju država, Hrvatske i Nizozemske kroz medjunarodnu kulturnu i volontersku razmjenu Hrvata i Nizozemaca. Osim toga posebno nas je razveselio posjet festivalu i Sisačko-moslavačkoj županiji Hendrika Jan Voskampa, veleposlanika Kraljevine Nizozemske u Republici Hrvatskoj. Na tu dužnost stigao je 2018. godine iz Berlina, gdje je od 2015. godine bio zamjenik veleposlanika. Kao karijerni diplomat doktorirao je na Europskom sveučilišnom institutu u Firenci, a diplomirao na Sveučilištu u Amsterdamu, gdje je stekao i magisterij na području društvenih znanosti. Ministarstvu vanjskih poslova pridružio se 1987. i tijekom višedesetljetne karijere obnašao je različite dužnosti. Iza njega su mandati u nizozemskim veleposlanstvima u Kostariki, Kosovu, Düsseldorfu, Bonnu i Berlinu.

(EN): In August of this year, KroNland successfully delivered its first project involving a ten-day long Cultural Industry Festival in Sisak-Moslavina County, more on which you can read here. In addition to a variety of cultural, sporting, and entertainment content by the festival to the delight of many Sisak citizens, we, at Kronland were in particular delighted by two facts. First, as a recently created association, we succeeded in achieving the first step and basic objective of KroNland, which is to reinforce friendly ties and relations between two countries, Croatia and the Netherlands, through international cultural and volunteer exchanges. Second, we were particularly glad to have been visited in our Sisak-Moslavina County by Hendrik Jan Voskampa, Ambassador of the Kingdom of the Netherlands to the Republic of Croatia at the time of the festival. He took up his post in 2018 from Berlin, where he had previously been Deputy Ambassador since 2015. As a career diplomat, he acquired his PhD at the European University Institute in Florence and graduated from the University of Amsterdam, where he also obtained a Master’s degree in Social Sciences. He joined the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1987 and held various functions for several decades. He had variously been appointed by Dutch embassies in Costa Rica, Kosovo, Düsseldorf, Bonn, and Berlin.

(NL): In augustus van dit jaar heeft KroNland met succes haar eerste project opgeleverd met een tiendaags cultureel industriefestival in Sisak-Moslavina County, waarover u meer kunt lezen hier.

Naast een verscheidenheid aan culturele, sportieve en entertainment inhoud door het festival tot grote vreugde van veel Sisak burgers, waren wij, in Kronland in het bijzonder blij met twee feiten.

Ten eerste zijn we er als onlangs opgerichte vereniging in geslaagd om de eerste stap en de fundamentele doelstelling van KroNland te bereiken, namelijk het versterken van vriendschappelijke banden en relaties tussen twee landen, Kroatië en Nederland, door middel van internationale culturele en vrijwilligersuitwisselingen.

Ten tweede waren we bijzonder blij dat we in onze provincie Sisak-Moslavina waren bezocht door Hendrik Jan Voskamp, ambassadeur van het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Republiek Kroatië ten tijde van het festival.

Hij trad in 2018 aan vanuit Berlijn, waar hij sinds 2015 plaatsvervangend ambassadeur was. Als carrièrediplomaat promoveerde hij aan het Europees Universitair Instituut in Florence en studeerde af aan de Universiteit van Amsterdam, waar hij ook een master sociale wetenschappen behaalde. Hij trad in 1987 in dienst bij het ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken en bekleedde tientallen jaren verschillende functies. Hij was benoemd door Nederlandse ambassades in Costa Rica, Kosovo, Düsseldorf, Bonn en Berlijn.

Njegova ekselencija Hendrik Jan Voskamp, Veleposlanik Kraljevine Nizozemske u Republici Hrvatskoj

KroNland (HR): Vaša ekselencijo, gospodine Voskamp, kako je jedan od bitnijih ciljeva udruge KroNland I predstavljanje kulturnih, umjetničkih, znanstvenih, razvojnih, gospodarskih i drugih društvenih postignuća Nizozemske zainteresiranoj javnosti u Republici Hrvatskoj možda je upravo Holandska kuća dobar odabir za ovakovu vrstu promocije Nizozemske na području Hrvatske. Da li je ovo vaš prvi posjet Sisačko-moslavačkoj županiji i Holandskoj kući u gradu Sisku?

(EN): Your Excellency, Mr Voskamp, as one of the main objectives of KroNland Association involves representing the cultural, artistic, scientific, developmental, economic, and other social achievements of the Netherlands to public audience in the Republic of Croatia, perhaps the Holland House is a good choice for promoting Netherlands in Croatia in such aspect. Is this Your first visit to Sisak-Moslavina County and the Holland House of Sisak?

(NL): Uwe Excellentie, de heer Voskamp, als een van de belangrijkste doelstellingen van Vereniging KroNland is het vertegenwoordigen van de culturele, artistieke, wetenschappelijke, ontwikkelings-, economische en andere maatschappelijke verworvenheden van Nederland voor het publiek in de Republiek Kroatië, misschien is het Holland House een goede keuze om Nederland in Kroatië in een dergelijk aspect te promoten. Is dit uw eerste bezoek aan Sisak-Moslavina County en het Holland House of Sisak?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): U Sisačko-moslavačkoj županiji sam već dvaput boravio povodom godišnjice Jasenovca u travnju 2019., te u travnju ove godine. Obilježavanje godišnjice je bilo onemogućeno 2020. godine diplomatskim tijelima zbog ograničenja uslijed pandemije COVID-19-a. Bio je to ujedno moj prvi posjet Sisku i krasnoj Holandskoj kući. Ograničenja koja je nizozemska vlada proglasila su suzila moje kretanje posljednjih 18 mjeseci, no bio sam oduševljen što sam mogao prisustvovati manifestaciji u Sisku.

(EN): I have been to the County already twice for the commemoration ceremony at Jasenovac in April 2019 and April of this year. In 2020 the ceremony was cancelled for the diplomatic corps due to covid restrictions. But it was my first visit to Sisak and to the beautiful Holland House. My government’s covid restrictions have limited my mobility for the last 18 months, but I was really glad to be able to attend the event in Sisak.

(NL): Ik heb de regio bezocht toen ik in april 2019 en april 2021 bij de jaarlijkse herdenking in Jasenovac aanwezig was. In 2020 was de herdenking voor het corps diplomatique afgelast vanwege covid. Maar het was mijn eerste bezoek aan Sisak en aan het schitterende Holland House. De covid-instructies van mijn regering hebben mijn bewegingsvrijheid in de afgelopen 18 maanden danig beperkt, maar ik was erg blij dat ik bij deze opening aanwezig kon zijn.

Holandska kuća, Sisak, Festival Kulturna industrija, 19. kolovoza 2021.

KroNland (HR): Kakvi su vaši dojmovi o Prvom festivalu Kulturna industrija Udruge KroNland?
(EN): What are Your impressions of our very first held festival Cultural Industry?

(NL): Wat zijn uw indrukken van ons allereerste festival Culturele Industrie?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp (HR): Najvažniji dojam je što sam bio svjedokom tome koliko uspješna može biti inicijativa koju pokrenu revni individualci, te koju ističe kao osobitost međusobna razmjena pogleda na kulturu i kulturnoga izražavanja iz naših dviju zemlja.

(EN): The most important impression was perhaps to witness how successful an initiative of enthusiastic individuals can be, showing the particular quality of personal exchanges of views on culture and cultural expression from our countries.

(NL): De belangrijkste indruk was misschien wel om te zien hoe succesvol een initiatief van enthousiaste individuen kan zijn, en de bijzondere kwaliteit van de persoonlijke uitwisseling van culturele visies en expressies uit onze landen.


KroNland(HR): Koliko je po vašem dosadašnjem iskustvu važno postojanje ovakvih društava prijateljstava i koliko je kultura općenito bitna poveznica spajanja dviju naroda i dvije države?
(EN): Judging from Your vast experience, do You reckon Friendship Associations to be of importance, and just how much does culture generally make a valuable link between two nations and two states?

(NL): Afgaande op Uw ruime ervaring, vindt U Vriendschapsverenigingen van belang, en in hoeverre maakt cultuur over het algemeen een waardevolle verbinding tussen twee naties en twee staten?

Hendrik Jav Voskamp(HR): Udruge prijateljstava, bilo da se radi o mladeži, umjetnicima, poduzetnicima ili pak političarima, su uvijek bile i nastavit će biti važnima. Dapače, u dobu digitalizacije i društvenih medija, ništa nije doraslo kvaliteti kakvu iskazuje međusobna interakcija i razmjena, te mogućnost sukobljavanja osobnih stavova i kulturnoga izražaja, pri čemu se dijele drukčija iskustva, razmjenjuju stavovi i po mogućnosti promiču nove ideje.

(EN): Friendship Associations, be they of youths, artists, entrepreneurs or politicians have been and remain important. Even in this age of digitisation and social media, nothing beats the quality of personal interaction and exchanges and the opportunity to confront each other with views and cultural expressions, sharing experiences, exchanging views and perhaps promote new ideas.

(NL): Vriendschapsverbanden, of het nu jongeren, kunstenaars, ondernemers of politici betreft, zijn altijd belangrijk geweest en blijven belangrijk. Zelfs in onze tijd, een tijd van digitalisering en sociale media, geldt dat niets op kan tegen persoonlijke contacten en uitwisseling. Het biedt de kans om elkaar te confronteren met opvattingen, vormen van culturele expressie, het delen van ervaringen en misschien wel de ontwikkeling van nieuwe ideeën.

KroNland(HR): Osim što je Udruga KroNland pokrenuta prvenstveno radi razvijanja, njegovanja i promicanja svestrane suradnje izmedju hrvatskog i nizozemskog naroda na kulturnom i umjetničkom polju takodjer želimo potaknuti i mogućnost jače suradnje Hrvatske i Nizozemske i na području gospodarstva i ekonomije. Kakva je trenutna suradnja tih dviju zemalja u ovome trenu i može li ona postati bolja?
(EN): In addition to launching KroNland Association primarily for the purpose of developing and fostering wholesome cooperation between Croatian and Dutch people in the cultural and artistic fields, we are also eager to encourage the likelihood of Croatia-Netherlands cooperation in economic affairs. What is current cooperation like between the two countries and is there room for improvement?

(NL): Naast de oprichting van KroNland Association, voornamelijk met het doel een gezonde samenwerking tussen Kroaten en Nederlanders op cultureel en artistiek gebied te ontwikkelen en te bevorderen, willen we ook de kans op samenwerking tussen Kroatië en Nederland op economisch gebied stimuleren. Hoe is de huidige samenwerking tussen beide landen en is er ruimte voor verbetering?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp (HR): Hrvatska i Nizozemska su obje članice Europske Unije unutar koje imamo slobodu razmjene dobara, usluga, kapitala i radnika. Tvrtke iz Nizozemske su aktivne u Hrvatskoj i obrnuto. Postoji i stručna razmjena (od brodogradnje do IT sektora i obnovljive energije) koja se odvija u obostranu korist. Također je moguće pronaći kvalitetne proizvode podrijetlom iz Hrvatske (npr. vino i maslinovo ulje) u Nizozemskoj. Međutim, uvijek ima mjesta za poboljšanje, i daljnje traganje za prilikama. I nizozemska ambasada u Zagrebu, i hrvatska ambasada u Hagu su aktivne u navedenom području. Podržavaju kako pojedince, tako i tvrtke, pružaju savjete, itd… Tu je zatim i dugoprisutna preferencija godišnjega odmora na hrvatskoj obali kod Nizozemaca, osobito u Istri, no i drugdje.

(EN): Croatia and the Netherlands are both part of the European Union in which we have free movement of goods, services, capital and workers. Companies from the Netherlands are active in Croatia and vice versa. There is an exchange of expertise (from shipbuilding to IT and renewable energy) to our mutual benefit. And, you will be able to find quality products of Croatia (for example wines and olive oil) in the Netherlands. But of course, there is always room for improvement, and to look further for opportunities. Both the Netherlands’ Embassy in Zagreb and the Croatian Embassy in The Hague are active in this area. They support both individuals and companies, provide advice, etcetera. And then there is the traditional Dutch preference for spending holidays on the Croatian coast, in particular Istria, but also elsewhere.

(NL): Kroatië en Nederland zijn beiden lid van de Europese Unie en genieten de vrije uitwisseling van goederen, diensten, kapitaal en werknemers. Nederlandse bedrijven zijn actief in Kroatië en omgekeerd ook. Er is uitwisseling van kennis (van scheepsbouw tot IT en hernieuwbare energie) ten behoeve van onze beide landen. In Nederland vind je Kroatische kwaliteitsproducten (bijvoorbeeld wijnen en olijfolie). Maar natuurlijk: er is altijd ruimte voor verbetering en voor het zoeken van nieuwe kansen. De Nederlandse ambassade in Zagreb en de Kroatische ambassade in Den Haag zijn actief op dit terrein. Zij ondersteunen zowel individuen en bedrijven, geven advies, enzovoorts.En dan is er natuurlijk de traditionele Nederlandse voorkeur om de vakantie in Kroatië door te brengen, vooral langs de kust in Istrië, maar ook elders.

KroNland(HR): Nizozemska je već godinama jedna od najjačih ekonomskih sila zapadne Europe. Nažalost, Hrvatska se od svog ulaska u Europsku uniju još uvijek bori s problemima prevelike birokracije i korumpiranosti na što se često žale svi strani investitori, vrlo vjerojatno i nizozemski. Koji su vaši savjeti za rješavanje tog teško rješivog problema hrvatske ekonomije i gospodarstva?

(EN): For years, the Netherlands has been recognized as an economic powerhouse of Western Europe. Unfortunately, since its accession to the European Union, Croatia has regularly been struggling with excessive bureaucracy and high rates of corruption, which are all complaints often made by foreign investors, presumably Dutch as well. What suggestions would You like to make in the way of solving this narrowly dispersible problem of the Croatian economy?

(NL): Nederland wordt al jaren erkend als economische grootmacht van West-Europa. Helaas kampt Kroatië sinds zijn toetreding tot de Europese Unie regelmatig met buitensporige bureaucratie en hoge corruptiecijfers, allemaal klachten die vaak worden gemaakt door buitenlandse investeerders, vermoedelijk ook Nederlandse. Welke suggesties zou u willen doen om dit eng verspreide probleem van de Kroatische economie op te lossen?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Rekao bih da su investicijska klima i lakoća poslovanja zasad još sporne točke za Hrvatsku. Dakako, nisam jedini koji je to primijetio. Strukturne reforme gospodarstva, rezanje birokracije, unaprijeđenje učinkovitosti sudstva su prve asocijacije. U Nizozemskoj smo poduzeli drastične mjere u navedenim područjima kasnih 80-ih i ranih 90-ih. Nije bilo lako, no na koncu se je isplatilo. Trenutno imamo situaciju u Nizozemskoj da postoji više slobodnih radnih mjesta nego ljudi koji su u potrazi za poslom. Dakle, usredotičiti se treba na usklađivanje potražnje (koje su kvalifikacije potrebne) i ponude. Nije lako, ali je prijeko potrebno. Kvaliteta obrazovanja, u najkraćim crtama.

(EN): I would say that the investment climate and the ease of doing business remain points of attention for Croatia. And I am not the only one to notice this. Structural reforms of the economy, reduction of bureaucracy and improvement of the efficacy of the judiciary come to mind. In the Netherlands we have taken drastic measures in these areas in the late 1980’s/early 1990’s. It was not easy, but it has paid off. Currently, in the Netherlands there are more job vacancies than people who are looking for a job.Thus, the focus should be on the match between demand (what qualifications are needed) and what is on offer. Not easy, but very necessary. Quality of education, in short.

(NL): Ik zou zeggen dat het investeringsklimaat en het gemak waarmee je zaken kunt doen belangrijke aandachtspunten blijven voor Kroatië. En ik ben niet de enige die dit vindt. Structurele hervormingen van de economie, terugdringen van bureaucratie en versterking van de effectiviteit van de rechterlijke macht springen er dan uit. In Nederland hebben we op deze terreinen drastische hervormingen toegepast in de 1980’s/1990’s. Het was niet gemakkelijk, maar het betaalde zich uit. Op dit moment zijn er in Nederland meer vacatures dan mensen die een baan zoeken.Dus moeten we ons nu concentreren op de juiste match tussen vraag (welke kwalificaties zijn vereist) en aanbod. Niet gemakkelijk, maar wel noodzakelijk. Het gaat dus om de kwaliteit van het onderwijs.

KroNland(HR): Što je za vas osobno najveći izazov otkad ste postali nizozemski veleposlanik u Hrvatskoj? Govorite nizozemski, engleski, francuski, njemački, španjolski i talijanski. Kako stojite sa znanjem hrvatskog jezika? Kako vam se svidja u Zagrebu?

(EN): What do You personally consider to be the greatest challenge ever since becoming ambassador to Croatia? You speak Dutch, English, French, German, Spanish, and Italian. Have You become knowledgeable in Croatian in the meantime? How do You find Zagreb so far?

(NL): Wat vindt U persoonlijk de grootste uitdaging sinds u ambassadeur is geworden in Kroatië?Je spreekt Nederlands, Engels, Frans, Duits,Spaans en Italiaans. Bent u ondertussen goed geïnformeerd in het Kroatisch? Hoe vind je Zagreb tot nu toe?

Hendrik JAN Voskamp (HR): Djelomično se zbog korone približavam trenutku kad moram priznati poraz. Navedene strane jezike sam naučio kad sam bio upola mlađi nego što sam sada, i u tome leži ključna razlika. Zatim, pokazalo se je da se lako mogu snalaziti sa znanjem engleskoga, njemačkog i talijanskog, a najzanimljivija književnost iz regije i ove zemlje, počevši od Ive Andrića, Miroslava Krleže pa do Slavenke Drakulić, Saše Stanišića, te Slobodana Šnajdera je redom dostupna u prijevodima na engleski, njemački, čak nizozemski!
Zagreb je vrlo zgodno mjesto za živjeti, po mjeri čovjeka. Odlikuje se povijesti, kulturom, potom restoranima, kafićima, te jako gostoljubivim ljudima.

(EN): No doubt, my greatest challenge has been my struggle with the Croatian language. Partly due to covid, I am nearing the point where I have to admit defeat. I learned my languages when I was less than half my current age, and that makes a difference. Furthermore, I have discovered that I can get around easily with English, German and Italian. And the most interesting literature from the region and this country, from Ivo Andric and Miroslav Krleza to Slavenka Drakulic, Sasa Stanisic or Slobodan Snajder,is available to me in English, German and even Dutch translations.

Zagreb is a very nice town to live in, the human measure, its history and culture, its restaurants and cafés and a very hospitable population.

(NL): Zonder twijfel is mijn grootste uitdaging tot dusver mijn worsteling met de Kroatische taal. Deels door covid nader ik het punt waarop ik mijn nederlaag moet toegeven. Ik heb mijn talen geleerd toen ik minder dan half zo oud was als ik nu ben. Bovendien heb ik ontdekt dat ik mij prima kan redden met Engels, Duits en Italiaans. En de meest interessante literatuur uit de regio en uit dit land, van Ivo Andric en Misroslav Krleza tot Slavenka Drakulic, Sasa Stanisic of Slobodan Snajder,is beschikbaar in Engelse, Duitse of zelfs Nederlandse vertalingen.

Zagreb is een heel prettige stad om in te wonen, met de menselijke maat, zijn geschiedenis en cultuur, de restaurants en cafés en een erg gastvrije bevolking.

KroNland(HR): U Nizozemskoj je proizvodnja apsolutno jedan od glavnih pokretača uspješne nizozemske ekonomije, no isto tako nizozemska vlada izuzetno puno ulaže u razvoj kulture, kulturnog turizma i medjunarodnih kulturnih i volonterskih razmjena. U Hrvatskoj je kultura često na začelju financiranja jer nikada ne donosi direktan profit. Po vašem mišljenju kakve benefite jedna država pa tako i Hrvatska može imati od ulaganja u kulturu i projekte društvenog djelovanja poput medjunarodnih volonterskih razmjena?

(EN): In the Netherlands, production is positively a main driver of successful Dutch economy, but the Dutch government is also heavily engaged in development of culture, cultural tourism and international cultural and volunteer exchanges. In Croatia, culture sector is rather an afterthought, as it never tends to bring direct profit. What benefits do You think a certain country, including Croatia, may receive in return from investing in culture and social engagement projects such as international volunteer exchanges?

(NL): In Nederland is productie een belangrijke motor van een succesvolle Nederlandse economie, maar de Nederlandse overheid is ook sterk bezig met de ontwikkeling van cultuur, cultuurtoerisme en internationale culturele en vrijwilligersuitwisselingen. In Kroatië is de cultuursector eerder een bijzaak, aangezien deze nooit de neiging heeft directe winst te maken.

Welke voordelen denkt u dat een bepaald land, inclusief Kroatië, kan ontvangen in ruil voor investeringen in cultuur- en sociale betrokkenheidsprojecten zoals internationale vrijwilligers uitwisselingen?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Izraz »kulturna industrija« je nastao prije nekih 20 godina i postao je popularan u zemljama kao što su Nizozemska i Velika Britanija. Značajan je po tome što kulturni sektor približava gospodarskome vrednovanju. Zamislite samo gospodarski utjecaj velikoga broja posjetitelja koji po običaju posjećuju Državni muzej u Amsterdamu koji na stalnoj izložbi drži Rembrandta i Vermeera, zatim Van Goghov muzej, Mauritshuis u Hagu koji ima Vermeerovu krasnu sliku »Pogled na Delft« i Potterovoga »Bika«. Lani su mnogi popularni festivali otkazani bili u akutnom razdoblju COVIDA 19-a. Tek tada smo shvatili da takvi festivali ne samo pružaju razonodu, nego i zapošljavaju mnoge tehničare, ugostitelje, osiguravatelje, itd… Ukratko, ulaganje u kulturu može predstavljati vrlo razboritu odluku s gospodarskoga stajališta. Sve to vrijedi pored važnoga stajališta promicanja međusobne razmjene!

(EN): Some twenty years ago, the expression “cultural industries” was coined, and became popular in the Netherlands and in countries like the UK. Its significance was to bring the cultural sector closer to the assessment of economic importance. Just imagine the economic impact of the huge number of people normally visiting the Amsterdam Rijksmuseum with its Rembrandts and Vermeers, the Van Gogh Museum or the Mauritshuis in The Hague with Vermeer’s beautiful “View on Delft” and Potter’s “The Bull”. Last year, during the acute phase of covid, many popular festivals were cancelled in the Netherlands. It was only then that we realized that such festivals not only provide entertainment, they also provide jobs for technicians, caterers, security staff and the like. Investing in culture, in short, can be a very sensible decision from an economic perspective. All of this apart from the important aspect of promoting human exchanges!

(NL): Zo’n twintig jaar geleden werd het begrip “culturele industrieën” geformuleerd. Het werd populair in landen als Nederland en het VK. Zijn betekenis was om de economische betekenis van cultuur te benadrukken. Bedenk maar eens wat de economische betekenis is van het grote aantal mensen dat het Amsterdamse Rijksmuseum met zijn Rembrandts en Vermeers bezoekt onder normale omstandigheden, of het Van Gogh Museum of het Mauritshuis in Den Haag met Vermeer’s beroemde “Gezicht op Delft” en “De Stier” van Potter. Vorig jaar, toen de covid crisis acuut was, werden veel populaire festivals in Nederland geannuleerd. Pas toen realiseerden we ons dat die festivals niet alleen amusement brengen, maar ook werk geven aan technici, cateraars, veiligheidsmensen en dergelijke. Investeren in cultuur kan, kortom, vanuit economisch perspectief een verstandige beslissing zijn. En dan komt daar nog bij de bevordering van uitwisseling tussen mensen!

KroNland(HR): Cijeli svijet se posljednjih nekoliko godina teško nosi sa teškom migrantskom krizom. Nizozemsko društvo je oduvijek bilo otvoreno i multikulturno. Kakav je danas stav nizozemskih gradjana prema migrantima posebno ovih nekoliko posljednjih tjedana vezano uz krizu u Afganistanu. Koliko je po vašem mišljenju Hrvatska otvoreno društvo?

(EN): The world has been struggling to deal with the current migration crisis in recent years. Dutch society has always been open and multicultural. What is nowadays the attitude of Dutch citizens towards migrants, particularly in recent weeks, in relation to the crisis in Afghanistan. How open is Croatia’s society in Your opinion?

(NL): De wereld heeft de afgelopen jaren moeite gehad om de huidige migratiecrisis het middel te pakken. De Nederlandse samenleving is altijd open en multicultureel geweest. Wat is tegenwoordig de houding van Nederlanders ten opzichte van migranten, met name de afgelopen weken, ten opzichte van de crisis in Afghanistan. Hoe open is de Kroatische samenleving volgens u?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Nizozemska je zemlja koja baštini dugu tradiciju primanja migranata. U 16. stoljeću su ljudi iz vjerskih razloga tražili sklonište iz Španjolske, Antwerpa i Francuske u liberalnijoj Nizozemskoj. U 19. i 20. st. smo k sebi primili migrante iz naših bivših kolonija (npr. Indonezija i Surinam, kasnije potom obitelji i radnike migrante, prvotno iz Španjolske, Portugala, Jugoslavije, zatim iz Moroka i Turske. Zbog poboljšanih mogućnosti za putovanjem, val selidbe su popratili migranti, izbjeglice ili jednostavno doseljenici iz mnogih afričkih i azijskih zemalja, također iz Europe (BiH i Kosovo). Aktualna migracija (Sirija, Afganistan) je dakako predmet javnoga i političkog spora u Nizozemskoj, kao što je i u ostalim europskim zemljama. Izazov je pronaći u našoj zemlji pravu ravnotežu između humanitarnih sagledavanja i što je prihvatljivo u društvu. U navedenom kontekstu je također nužno uzeti u obzir sposobnost i volju migranata za integracijom u naše društvo.

Što se tiče Hrvatske, stekao sam dojam da je glavnina migracije ovdje »tranzitne« prirode ili se oslanja na potrebu tržišta rada, pogotovo u turističkom sektoru. U Nizozemskoj imamo istu takvu gospodarski uvjetovanu privremenu migraciju.

(EN): The Netherlands have traditionally been a country receiving migrants. In the sixteenth century, for religious reasons, people fled from Spain and Antwerp, but also France, to the more liberal Netherlands. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, we absorbed migrants from our former colonies (like Indonesia and Surinam) and later migrant workers and their families from, first Spain, Portugal and Yugoslavia, later Morocco and Turkey. Due to increased opportunities for travel, this was followed by migrants, refugees or not, from many African and Asian countries, but from Europe as well (Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo). The continuing migration (Syria, Afghanistan) is of course a source of public and political debate in the Netherlands, no different from most other European countries. It is a challenge in our country to find the right balance between humanitarian considerations and what is acceptable in society. In this context, also the capacity and willingness of migrants to integrate in our society has to be taken into account.

As for Croatia, I have the impression that most migration here is “in transit” or related to the needs of the labour market, especially in the tourism sector. We have such economically inspired temporary migration as well in the Netherlands.

(NL): Nederland is traditioneel een migratieland. In de zestiende eeuw vluchten mensen uit onder meer Spanje, Frankrijk en Antwerpen om religieuze redenen naar het meer liberale Nederland. In de negentiende en twintigste eeuw kwamen er migranten uit onze voormalige kolonies (Indonesië, Suriname) en later de gastarbeiders en hun gezinnen. Eerst uit onder andere Spanje, Portugal en Joegoslavië, later uit Marokko en Turkije. Door de verruimde mogelijkheden om te reizen kwamen er migranten, vluchtelingen of niet, uit veel Afrikaanse en Aziatische landen, maar ook uit Europa (Bosnië-Herzegovina, Kosovo). De voortdurende migratie (Syrië, Afghanistan) is natuurlijk een thema voor publiek en politiek debat, niet anders dan in andere Europese landen. Onze uitdaging is de juiste balans te vinden tussen humanitaire overwegingen en wat maatschappelijk aanvaardbaar is. Daarbij speelt ook het vermogen en de bereidheid om te integreren in onze samenleving een belangrijke rol.

Wat Kroatië betreft heb ik deindruk dat de meeste migranten in dit land op doorreis zijn, of hier zijn om te werken in sectoren van de economie waar tekorten zijn, in het bijzonder in het toerisme. Dit soort tijdelijke, economisch gemotiveerde, migratie hebben wij ook in Nederland.

KroNland(HR): Kada pogledate iza sebe možete li istaknuti ključna postignuća tijekom vaše doista impresivne diplomatske karijere? Koja je glavna uloga “modernog” ambasadora?

(EN): In retrospect, can You highlight some key achievements in the course of Your impressive diplomatic career? What would be the chief role of a „modern“ ambassador?

(NL): Achteraf gezien, kunt u enkele belangrijke prestaties in de loop van uw indrukwekkende diplomatieke carrière benadrukken? Wat zou de belangrijkste rol van een “moderne” ambassadeur zijn?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Diplomatu je srž posla razmjenjivati poruke između države koju predstavlja i države u pitanju, u ovom slučaju Hrvatske. Takva razmjena poruka ili komuniciranje (njemački izraz za ambasadora je »Botschafter« — doslovce znači glasnik) podrazumijeva pružanje informacija, no i analizu trenutnoga stanja. Vaša svrha je ipak tu da budete “uši i oči” Nizozemske u zemlji u kojoj ste postavljeni. Na Vašem je sjedištu, u mojem slučaju se radi o nizozemskom Ministarstvu stranih poslova, odlučiti što će s izvjesnom informacijom obzirom na političku realnost u Nizozemskoj. Moje ključno postignuće je bio niz izvješća koje je visoki javni službenik u Hagu komentirao ovako: “Henk, ovo si iznova i nanovo izvjestio, no o tome nismo htjeli čuti” – razlog je bila nacionalna politika u Hagu. Sama tema nije važna, koliko je fenomen.

(EN): A diplomat has as core business to convey messages back and forth between the state he or she is representing and the guest state, in this case Croatia. This messaging (the German word for ambassador is “Botschafter” – messenger) can be providing information, but also analysis of what is going on. You are after all the “eyes and ears”of the Netherlands in the country where you are posted.It is up to your headquarters, in my case the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to decide what to do with this information, and they have to take the political reality in the Netherlands into account. My key achievement has been a series of reporting on which a high civil servant in The Hague commented “Henk, you have been reporting this time and again, but we wouldn’t hear it” – for reasons of national politics in The Hague. The topic is not important, it is about the phenomenon.

(NL): De kerntaak van een diplomaat is informatie over en weer te verstrekken en achtergrond te geven bij het beleid van een staat waar hij/zij werkzaam is, in dit geval Kroatië.Jij bent de “ogen en oren” van Nederland in het land waar je werkzaam bent. Wat het hoofdkantoor, het Nederlandse Ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken, doet met deze boodschappen (het Duitse woord voor ambassadeur is “Botschafter”, boodschapper) hangt af van het politieke debat in jouw hoofdstad. Mijn belangrijkste bijdrage was een serie berichten waarover een hoge Haagse ambtenaar mij vertelde “Henk, jij hebt het altijd gerapporteerd, maar we wilden het niet horen” – vanwege het nationale politieke debat in Den Haag. Het gaat niet over het onderwerp, het gaat over het verschijnsel.

KroNland(HR): Postoji li neko iskustvo, osoba ili dogadjaj koji je posebno utjecao na vaš doista inspirativan način bavljenja diplomacijom?

(EN): Is there a particular experience, person, or an event that has greatly influenced Your truly inspiring way of diplomacy?

(NL): Is er een bepaalde ervaring, persoon of gebeurtenis die uw werkelijk inspirerende manier van diplomatie sterk heeft beïnvloed?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Kad sam bio tinejdžer, Max Van der Stoel je bio naš ministar stranih poslova, bio je ponešto monotona, ali figura od principa, koja je imala veliki utjecaj na obnovu demokracije u Grčkoj. Njegov staloženi, ali jako principijelni pristup ljudskim pravima i vladavini prava me je oduvijek nadahnjivao. Kad sam autostopirao Grčkom 1977. god., u najmanjim selima ljudi su znali jedva dva Nizozemca, nogometaša Johana Cruyffa i Maxa Van der Stoela. Poslije je postao prvi visoki povjerenik za nacionalne manjine u OSCE-u. Sloboda, demokracija i vladavina prava nisu očite, kako nam je poznato iz bliske prošlosti. Ona su ljudska postignuća koje je nužno održavati i braniti. Nužno ih je braniti svugdje, također u našim zemljama.

(EN): When I was a teenager, Max Van der Stoel was our Foreign Minister, a somewhat dull but principled man who was influential in restoring democracy to Greece. His calm but very principled approach to human rights and rule of law has always inspired me. When I was hitchhikingin Northern Greece in 1977, in the smallest villages people knew only two Dutchmen, the football player Johan Cruyff and Max Van der Stoel. He later became the first High Commissioner for National Minorities in the OSCE. Freedom, democracy and rule of law are not self-evident, as we know from not too distant history. These are human achievements that need maintenance and defense. They have to be defended everywhere, also in our countries.

(NL): Toen ik op de middelbare school zat was Max Van der Stoel onze minister van Buitenlandse Zaken, een ietwat saaie maar bijzonder principiële man die een belangrijke rol vervulde bij het herstel van de democratie in Griekenland. Zijn rustige, maar principiële benadering van mensenrechten en de rechtsstaat heeft mij altijd geïnspireerd. Toen ik liftte in Noord-Griekenland in 1977, kenden mensen in de kleinste dorpjes maar twee Nederlanders: de voetballer Johan Cruyff en Max van de Stoel. Hij werd later nog de eerste Hoge Commissaris voor Nationale Minderheden in de OVSE. Vrijheid, democratie en rechtsstaat zijn niet vanzelfsprekend, zoals we uit de niet al te verre geschiedenis weten. Dit zijn menselijke verworvenheden die onderhoud en verdediging vergen. Zij moeten overal worden verdedigd, ook in onze beide landen.

KroNland(HR): Vaša ekselencijo, gospodine Voskamp, kada razmišljate o Nizozemskoj koja vam misao prva pada na pamet? Da li je to možda Kraljev dan?

(EN): Your excellency, Mr. Voskamp, when You think of the Netherlands, what is the first thought that springs to Your mind? Is it maybe King’s Day?

(NL): Excellentie, meneer Voskamp, ​​wat is de eerste gedachte die bij u opkomt als u aan Nederland denkt? Is het misschien Koningsdag?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Pa, Kraljev dan je među svim državnim praznicima u raznim europskim zemljama valjda najizuzetniji praznik, jer je u biti jedan veliki tulum za sve. Nema mimohoda, nema službenih govora ili svečanosti, nego je veliki tulum svugdje, od Amsterdama do najmanjega sela. Često je osobiti tulum za djecu. Međutim, moja prva pomisao su polja tulipana u ranom travnju. Niz godina sam znao vlakom obilaziti spomenuta polja. Stvar je da jednostavno morate odložiti novine i baciti pogled kroz prozor u vlaku. U životu nisam vidio takvo što. Nije iznenađenje stoga što ljudi iz SAD-a i Japana dolaze u Nizozemsku u navedeno vrijeme.

(EN): Well, King’s Day is of all the national days in the various European countries perhaps the most exceptional one, because it is one big party for really everyone. No parades, no official speeches or ceremonies, just one big party everywhere, from Amsterdam to the smallest village. And often: in particular a party for children. But no, my first thoughts are the tulip fields in early April. I used to commute by train through these fields for many years. You simply have to stop reading your newspaper and look outside from the train. Never in my life I have seen anything close to this. It is not surprising that people from the USA or Japan come to the Netherlands in this time of the year.

(NL): Nou ja, Koningsdag is van alle nationale dagen in de Europese landen misschien wel de meest bijzondere. Geen parades, officiële toespraken of ceremonies, gewoon één groot feest overal, van Amsterdam tot het kleinste dorpje. En vaak: vooral een kinderfeest. Maar nee, mijn eerste gedachte zijn de tulpenvelden, begin april. Ik reisde vaak door deze velden. Je moet je krant wel neerleggen en naar buiten kijken. Nooit in mijn leven heb ik iets gezien dat hierbij de in de buurt kwam. Het wekt geen verbazing dat mensen uit de VS of Japan speciaal naar Nederland komen om dit te zien.

Polja tulipana, Nizozemska

KroNland(HR): Udruga KroNland je mlada udruga, riječ je o hrvatsko-nizozemskom društvu prijateljstva. Koji su vaši savjeti i poruke za naše zajedničko i još ljepše i još bolje sutra?

(EN): Kronland Association is a recent establishment. We are talking about a Dutch-Croatian friendship association. What message or advice would You like to give us for the benefit of a mutually better tomorrow?

(NL): Kronland Association is een recente vestiging. We hebben het over een Nederlands-Kroatische vriendschapsvereniging. Welke boodschap of welk advies zou u ons willen geven ten behoeve van een wederzijds betere toekomst?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Imam samo jedan savjet: uvijek idite principom od dna do vrha. Bilokoja organizacija se može nadati budućnosti ukoliko ima potporu ljudi, pojedinaca koji dijele zajednički stajalište. Nije moguće postići kontinuitet kroz mjesni, regionalni ili nacionalni autoritet. Mora doći iz ljudih samih. Stoga, organizirajte događaje koje ljudi cijene i smatraju dragocjenima u svojim životima.

(EN): Only one advice: keep it “bottom-up”! Any association only has a future if it is supported by people, individuals that share a common view. One cannot achieve the continuity through local, regional or national authorities. It has to come from people themselves. Thus, organise events that people appreciate and consider them to be valuable for their lives.

(NL): Maar één advies: houd het “bottom-up”! Een vereniging heeft alleen een toekomst als zij wordt gesteund door mensen, individuen met een gezamenlijk doel voor ogen.Continuïteit kan niet worden bereikt door steun van lokale, regionale of nationale autoriteiten. Het moet van de mensen zelf komen. Dus: organiseer evenementen die worden gewaardeerd door de burgers en die zij als een verrijking van hun leven zien.

KroNland(HR): Sisačko-moslavačka županija se još uvijek nastoji oporaviti od posljedica razornog potresa koji ste vjerojatno osjetili i vi. Riječ je o velikoj materijalnoj šteti, ali i nenadoknadivoj kolektivnoj traumi. I Nizozemska je zemlja koja je pretrpjela velike gubitke u drugom svjetskom ratu, ali je od ipak od tad do sad uspjela postignuti i nevjerojatan napredak, tj. Nizozemska je danas jedna od pet najnaprednijih socijalno i ekonomski razvijenih zemalja. Koji je vaš savjet za napredovanje regije koja je već godinama jedna od nažalost najnerazvijenijih regija Hrvatske?

(EN): Sisak-Moslavina County is still grasping to recover from the devastating earthquake You are likely to have experienced. We are dealing here with widespread damage, but also with an irreparable collective trauma. The Netherlands is also a country that has suffered major losses in the Second World War, but it has since managed to make stunning progress, i.e. the Netherlands is today one of the five most economically and socially advanced countries in the globe. What advice could You give to advance a region that has been one of the most underdeveloped regions of Croatia for many years.

(NL): Sisak-Moslavina County is nog steeds aan het proberen om te herstellen van de verwoestende aardbeving die u waarschijnlijk hebt meegemaakt. We hebben hier te maken met wijdverbreide schade,maar ook met een onherstelbaar collectief trauma. Nederland is ook een land dat grote verliezen heeft geleden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog, maar sindsdien is het erin geslaagd om verbluffende vooruitgang te boeken, d.w.z. Nederland is vandaag de dag een van de vijf economisch en sociaal meest geavanceerde landen ter wereld.

Welk advies kunt u geven om een regio vooruit te helpen die al vele jaren een van de meest onderontwikkelde regio’s van Kroatië is?

Hendrik Jan Voskamp(HR): Sjećam se vrlo dobro prvoga potresa u ožujku 2020. god., među ostalim zato što se epicentar bio nalazio nedaleko od mojega mjesta stanovanja. Uvidio sam da su mi refleksi (od potresa sklonoj Kostariki) još u dobrom stanju, međutim, vidio sam šok u očima brojnih ljudi koji nikad nisu prethodno bili iskusili takav potres. Istina, Nizozemska je prošla iskustvo Drugoga svjetskog rata, potom poplave 1953. god. koja je odnijela gotovo 2000 života zbog utapanja. Međutim, uvjerenja sam da se traumu da popraviti. Poplave, potresi, požari će nas sve češće pratiti u našim životima, nažalost, i pandemije. Ključno je što smo u Nizozemskoj dali prioritet suočavanju s našim najvećim neprijateljem – vodom. Bilo je skupo, no dokazalo se je uspješnim. Budite pragmatični i pripremite se na najgore. Prilagodite građevinske zahtjeve, prilagodite upravljanje vodom, poduzmite preventivne mjere, osposobite krizne timove. Imamo samo ovaj svijet i s tim se moramo nositi.

Što se tiče regionalnoga razvoja, tražite određenu nišu koja čini regiju posebnom, odnosno jedinstvenu prodajnu ponudu, kako bi rekli biznismeni. Obala rijeke nasuprot Holandskoj kući je jako lijepa i mirna. Postoje li smještajni kapaciteti za turiste koje zanima ležerni odmor i opušteni boravak? Budite još realistični, pitajte mlade što žele.

(EN): I recall the first earthquake in March 2020 very well, also because the epicentre was not far from the residence where I live. I discovered that my reflexes (from earthquake-prone Costa Rica) were still OK, but I noticed the shock in the eyes of many people who never had experienced such quakes. Yes, the Netherlands suffered in the Second World War, and afterwards in the 1953 deluge that cost the lives of nearly 2000 people who drowned. But, I believe that trauma is reparable.Floods, quakes, wildfires will increasingly be part of our lives, just as pandemics are, regrettably. What we did in the Netherlands was to give priority to combating our biggest enemy, the water. It was expensive, but it has proven to be successful. Be pragmatic and prepare for the worst. Adapt building requirements, adapt water management, take more preventive measures, set up permanent crisis teams. We have only one world and that is what we have to deal with.

And as far as regional development is concerned: look for a “niche”, something that makes the region special, a “unique selling point” as businessmen say. The riverside opposite the Holland House was very nice and peaceful. Is there tourist accommodation for those people who are looking for a really relaxed holiday? And be realistic, ask the young what they want!

(NL): Ik herinner me de eerste aardbeving in maart 2020 heel goed, ook omdat het epicentrum niet ver van de residentie lag. Ik merkte dat mijn reflexen uit Costa Rica (waar aardbevingen heel normaal waren) nog in orde waren, maar ik zag ook de schrik in de ogen van mensen die zoiets nog nooit hadden meegemaakt. Ja, Nederland heeft geleden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog en in de ramp in 1953 toen bijna 2000 mensen verdronken. Maar ik ben van mening dat trauma herstelbar is. Overstromingen, aardbevingen, bosbranden zullen in toenemende mate deel van ons leven zijn, net zoals – helaas – pandemieën. Wat wij in Nederland hebben gedaan, is onze grootste vijand, het water, te lijf te gaan. Het kostte veel geld, maar het is een succes gebleken. Pas bouwvergunningen aan, pas het waterbeheer aan, neem meer preventieve maatregelen, zet permanente crisis teams op. We hebben slechts één wereld en daar moeten we het mee doen.

Wat de regionale ontwikkeling betreft: zoek een “niche”, iets dat de regio bijzonder maakt, het “unique selling point” zoals dat in de zakenwereld heet. De rivieroever voor het Holland House was erg aangenaam en vredig. Is er accommodatie voor toeristen die een dergelijke rustige vakantie willen? En wees realistisch, vraag de jongeren wat zij zouden willen!

Lelystad, Nizozemska, 28.9.2021.

Autorica intervjua: Sandra Drnić

Prijevod na engleski jezik: Moreno Vuleta

Prijevod na nizozemski jezik: Ben Vos

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